April 2004 Secretarys Report

This report details the day to day activities of the ASCA Board of Directors and includes issues brought before the ASCA Board and communications done by mail, fax, e-mail and/or phone.

April 1- 30, 2004

93:17 STOCK DOG RULES - Finals CH.11
Motion by Warren.
I move to accept the following recommendation from the SDC:

 

Motion made by Walker, seconded by Vest.
Motion to add to the end of Chapter 11, Section 9.7, the following:

Reasons for granting a re-run:

a.  When stock is obviously sick or injured.
b.  Disturbances which affect the fairness of the run.
c.  Unworkable stock.  If the workability of the livestock comes into question, the        Judges should score the run as seen at the time and note that the stock is in         question.  At the end of the class the Judges will need to decide if there was             only one dog with unworkable stock or if the stock were equal for each       competitor.

Effective June 1, 2004.
 
Vote:  Approve:  Adamczyk, Walker, Mahoney, Davies, Schvaneveldt, Kelly, Holmes, Baker, Simmons. Non-Voting:  Bryant, Vest.

Directors voting:  Approve; Aufox, Gray, Davenport, DeChant, Hellmeister, Warren and Berryessa.  Non-Voting:  Stevens and Hollen.  Motion is approved.

93:17  SDC - CH 3 SEC. 6.2 [Disqualified and/or Excused]
Motion by Davenport.
I move the following motion from the Stockdog Committee.

 

Motion made by Mahoney, seconded by Kelly
Change CHAPTER 3 SECTION 6 - DISQUALIFIED AND/OR EXCUSED DOGS from

2. Disqualified Dogs: Should a Judge disqualify a dog from competition, the Judge will state the reason on the score sheet and give the Course Director a brief written report of the dogs action immediately following the incident. This report shall also be submitted to the ASCA Business Office, who shall supply the ASCA Stockdog Committee Corresponding Secretary and the ASCA Executive Secretary with a copy.

CHANGE TO:

2. Disqualified Dogs: Should a Judge disqualify a dog from competition, the Judge will state the reason on the score sheet and give the Course Director a brief written report of the dogs action immediately following the incident. This report shall also be submitted to the ASCA Business Office, who shall supply the ASCA Stockdog Committee Chairperson and the ASCA Executive Secretary with a copy.

Approve:  Mahoney, Vest, Davies, Schvaneveldt, Adamczyk, Walker, Baker, Bryant, Simmons, Kelly, Holmes

Comments:  Cleaning up the wording from ASCA Stockdog Committee Corresponding Secretary to ASCA Stockdog Committee Chairperson. Motion is Approved, I will notify the Board

 

Directors voting:  Approve:  Gray, Davenport, Berryessa, DeChant, Hellmeister, Aufox and Warren.  Non-Voting:  Hollen and Stevens.  Motion is approved.

 

93:17  SDC - CH 13 SEC. 4.1, 4.5
Motion by Davenport.
I move the following motion from the Stockdog Committee.

 

Motion made by Mahoney, seconded by Holmes
Change CHAPTER 13 ASCA STOCKDOG COMMITTEE
SECTION 4 - ASCA STOCKDOG COMMITTEE ADMINISTRATION from:

1. Committee members will serve a two (2) year term, except for the ASCA Stockdog Secretary.
5. All ASCA Stockdog Committee votes will be published in the ASCA Stockdog Committee Secretary's periodic report.

CHANGE TO:

CHAPTER 13 Section 4
1. Committee members will serve a two (2) year term, except for the ASCA Stockdog Chairperson, who is elected annually by the Stockdog Committee.
5.  All ASCA Stockdog Committee votes will be published in the AUSSIE TIMES ASCA Secretary's Report and/or any approved ASCA e-mail list.  Only the final count must be published.
 
Approve:  Mahoney, Vest, Davies, Schvaneveldt, Adamczyk, Walker, Baker, Kelly, Simmons  Disapprove:  Bryant
 
Comments:  I believe individual committee members' votes should always be published.  M. G. Bryant
 
Directors voting:  Approve:  Gray, Davenport, Berryessa, Hellmeister and Warren Disapprove:  Aufox and DeChant.  Non-Voting:  Stevens and Hollen. Motion is approved.

 

93:17  SDC - CH 10 SEC. 4.1 -- Ranch Trial Sanctioning
Motion by Davenport.
I move the following motion from the Stockdog Committee.

 

Motion by Mahoney, seconded by Kelly

Change CHAPTER 10 RANCH TRIAL PROGRAM
SECTION 4 - RANCH TRIAL SANCTIONING from:

1. Initial approval of a Ranch Trial Course must be approved by the Ranch Trial Sanctioning Committee. Therefore it must be received by the SDC Corresponding Secretary 60 days prior to the trial date. In turn, the SDC will forward the request to the ASCA Business Office at least 30 days prior to the trial date.

CHANGE TO:

CHAPTER 10 Section 4
1. A Ranch Trial Course must be approved by the Ranch Trial Sanctioning Committee. The sanctioning request must be received by the ASCA Business Office at least 60 days prior to the trial date. The Business Office will forward the request to the Ranch Trial Committee, who will review and return it to the ASCA Business Office at least 30 days prior to the trial date.
 
Approve:  Mahoney, Vest, Davies, Schvaneveldt, Adamczyk, Walker, Holmes, Baker, Bryant, Kelly, Simmons
 
Comment:  The *current* rules says the sanctioning request goes to the "SDC
Corresponding Secretary" (a position we haven't had in 10(?) years) then to the BO. The (proposed) change is to make the rule fit what is *really* occurring: the sanctioning request goes to the BO, then to the Ranch Trial Committee.

Directors voting:  Approve:  Gray, Davenport, Berryessa, DeChant, Hellmeister, Aufox and Warren.  Non-Voting:  Hollen and Stevens.  Motion is approved.

93:17 SDC-Chapter 11, Section 6.3 -- Ties at Finals
Motion by Davenport.
I move the following motion from the Stockdog Committee.

Motion made by Holmes, seconded by Simmons
Motion to change Chapter 11, Section 6.3 to read:

3. If there is a tied final score for placements 1st-4th , a winner will be determined by run-off.  Ties for placements 5th-10th will be broken by methods listed below. (see a. & b.)   If a run-off is not possible due to extenuating circumstances the following criteria will be used to break ties.
a.  Taking the total combined highest average score from all three go-arounds for dog's ability to control livestock for the set-up and work at center obstacle.
b.  Taking  the total combined highest average score from all three go-arounds for dog's ability to control livestock for the cross-drive through obstacle two(2).
 
Approve:  Vest, Schvaneveldt, Adamczyk, Walker, Davies, Simmons, Holmes, Baker, Bryant, Kelly  Non-voting:  Mahoney
 
Comments:  The SDC spent a lot of time working over this issue.  Ideas were suggested, a survey was done from the ideas, wording was presented to the SDC for the rule change, a few changes and then a final motion.

Directors voting:  Approve:  Gray, Davenport, DeChant and Warren.  Disapprove:  Berryessa, Hellmeister and Aufox.  Non-Voting:  Hollen and Stevens.  Motion is approved.

93:17 STOCK DOGRULES -Vote Results - Motion Course C  CH 3, Sec 11.3, Diagrams Appendix I, Appendix C COURSE DESCRIPTION AND MATERIALS
Motion by Davenport.
I move the following motion from the Stockdog Committee, with the attachment:

 

Motion made by Baker, seconded by Walker

Motion Course C CH 3, Sec 11.3, Diagrams
Appendix I, Appendix C COURSE DESCRIPTION AND MATERIALS

Motion to accept the Submitted Course C rules Section 11, 3. a -J ,  Appendix C, and diagrams Left hand and right hand course as written for a 1 year trial period. At the end of the 1 year trial period if any adjustment needs to be made it will be done then and decided if it can be finalized or put in a trial period for 1 more year.
 
Wording below, diagrams attached (Right) (Left).
 
CH. 3 SECTION 11 - ARENA AND OBSTACLES
3. Course C Arena

 

a.   Set-Up - The duck, sheep and cattle arenas will be set up with panels and pens positioned as outlined in Appendix (I) and Appendix (J) described in this section.

b.   Sequence (for a right hand chute) The direction of the obstacles will be to move the stock up the middle of the arena till the stock is parallel to the opening of obstacle 1 then proceed through the opening in obstacle 1 in a counter-clock wise circle towards obstacle 2, then proceed in a clockwise circle through the opening of obstacle 2 towards the chute. Advanced and open will proceed through the chute and to the Repen. Started will proceed from obstacle 2 towards the Repen. The sequence of events shall be as follows: take pen, obstacle 1, obstacle 2, chute and repen. Obstacles 1 and 2 must be attempted before attempting the chute as described in Chapter 3, Section 10.4. No points will be awarded for the chute for started dogs.

c.   Exceptions- If the Course Director feels that there is too much interference with the chute on the right side of the arena then the course may be run in the opposite direction by moving the chute to the left side of the arena and running obstacle 1 on a clockwise direction and obstacle 2 on a counter-clock wise direction towards the chute. (see Appendix J)

 

d.   Panels - Cattle and sheep arena panels will be eight (8) to twelve (12) feet in length and will be at least four (4) feet high. Duck arena panels will be four (4) feet long and at least two (2) feet high.
 

e.  Take Pens - The duck arena take pen shall be a minimum of eight (8)feet by eight (8) feet and a maximum of sixteen (16)feet by sixteen (16) feet. The take pen does not have to be the same enclosure as the repen as long as the procedure is consistent for the entire trial and both pens are at the same end of the arena. The take pen gate must be closed after the stock is released into the arena. If the Judge, in consultation with the Course Director, decides that the take pen is not of adequate size and construction to be safe for the dog or the livestock, the cattle or sheep will be released into the arena from the take pen. Advanced handlers must position themselves at the Advanced handler line where ever they feel it is best to take control of the stock to move them up the middle of the arena. Open Handlers must position themselves on the handlers side of the open handlers line or where ever they feel it is best to take control of the stock to move it up the middle of the arena. Started handlers may position themselves where ever they feel it is best to take control of the stock to move it up the middle of the arena.  All take pens shall be placed on the outside of the arena on the fence opposite the first obstacle whenever possible. The take pen size and location shall be stated in the sanctioning request form.

f.   Obstacle 1 - This obstacle consists of two panels, positioned at a 45 degree angle to the upper corners of the arena inline with each other. The panels position off the rear and side fence must be equal.

      a. The duck arena. In a minimum size arena these panels shall not be less than twelve (12) feet from the rear fence and side fence and not more than twenty (20) feet from the rear and side fences at a 45 degree angle from the corner of the arena with a four (4) feet opening between the other inline panel. In a maximum size duck arena, the distance shall not exceed twenty (20) feet.
 
(Note) when moving the panels off the fence more than the minimum distance the cross drive may not be less than thirty-three (33) feet from the bottom corner of the panel of obstacle 1 to the bottom corner of the panel of obstacle 2.  

      b. The sheep and cattle arena. In a minimum size arena these panels shall not be less than thirty-five (35)feet from the rear and side fence and not more than fifty (50) feet for a larger size arena at a 45 degree angle from the corner of the arena with a ten (10) feet opening between the other inline panel.
To use 6 -10 head of stock, the obstacle openings must be fifteen (15) feet and the minimum distance of the cross drive must not be less than forty-three (43) feet. To receive course points for obstacle 1, at least one (1) head of livestock must pass the plane between the two inline panels. If the stock pass through obstacle 1 from the wrong direction then at least one (1) head must be driven past the plane of the inline panels so that daylight can be seen by the Judge between the line and the stock. The stock then must be turned around to attempt the obstacle in the correct direction. Ability to control livestock points for this work will be subject to the manner in which the movements around the obstacle were executed.

g.  Obstacle 2 - This obstacle consists of two panels, positioned at a 45 degree angle to the upper corners of the arena inline with each other. The panels position off the rear and side fence must be equal.

a. The duck arena. In a minimum size arena these panels shall not be less than twelve (12)feet from the rear fence and side fence and not more than twenty (20) feet from the rear and side fences at a 45 degree angle from the corner of the arena with a four (4) feet opening between the other inline panel. In a maximum size duck arena, the distance shall not exceed twenty (20) feet.
 
(Note) when moving the panels off the fence more than the minimum distance the cross drive may not be less than twenty (20) feet from the bottom panel of obstacle 1  to the bottom panel of obstacle 2.  

b. The sheep and cattle arena. In a minimum size arena these panels shall not be less than thirty-five (35)feet from the rear and side fence and not more than fifty (50) feet for a larger size arena at a 45 degree angle from the corner of the arena with a ten (10) feet opening between the other inline panel.
To use 6 -10 head of stock, the obstacle openings must be fifteen (15) feet and the minimum distance of the cross drive must be forty-three (43) feet.
To receive course points for obstacle 2 at least one (1) head of livestock must pass the plane between the 2 inline panels.  If the stock pass through obstacle 2 from the wrong direction then at least one (1) head must be driven past the plane of the inline panels so that daylight can be seen by the Judge between the line and the stock. The stock then must be turned around to attempt the obstacle in the correct direction. Ability to control livestock points for this work will be subject to the manner in which the movements around the obstacle were executed.

h.      Chute - The chute consists of four panels. The duck arena chute shall be two (2) feet wide at the exit. The sheep and cattle arena chute shall be four (4) feet wide at the exit. The wing ends of the chute shall be positioned in a minimum size arena for the sheep and cattle arena thirty-five (35) from the side fence and in a larger arena up to fifty (50) feet; twelve (12) feet for a minimum size duck arena and for larger duck arenas up to twenty (20) feet. From the  bottom corner of the panel of Obstacle 2 down to the wings of the chute, with the wings positioned at a 45 degree angle to the center of the chute, the distance must be  (100) feet for the sheep and cattle arena, (35)feet for the duck arena. Ability to control livestock points for this work will be subject to the manner in which movement through the obstacle was executed.
 
(Note) The distance from the side fence to obstacle 1 & 2 will be the same as the distance from the side fence to the closest chute wing. 

i.        Handlers lines - The Advanced handlers line shall be (150) one hundred fifty feet for the sheep and cattle arena, (45) forty-four feet for the duck arena, from the bottom corner of the panel of Obstacle 1 or Obstacle 2 down to the take pen side of the arena. The Open handlers line shall be thirty-five (35) feet for the sheep and cattle arena, twelve feet (12) for the duck arena, from the bottom corners of Obstacle 1 and Obstacle 2 towards the take pen side of the arena.   

j.         Repen - The handler may repen at anytime. The repen may be the same pen as the take pen. When the repen gate is opened, no further points can be earned on any other part of the course.

APPENDIX C - COURSE DESCRIPTION AND MATERIALS

IV. Course C
1. Ducks
A. Arena: minimum of 60' X 90' up to a maximum of 100' X 100' (plus or minus five (5) feet combined).
 
B. Panels: four (4) feet X two (2) feet.
 
C. Pen: located at end of arena opposite Obstacle 1 and 2, preferably
outside the arena; 8' X 8' minimum, 16' X 16' maximum with the take pen gate a minimum of 8 feet.
 
D. Obstacle 1: two (2) panels positioned twelve (12) feet and up to twenty (20) feet from rear fence and  twelve (12) feet and up to twenty (20) feet from the side fence at a 45 degree angle from the upper left corner of the arena inline with each other with a four (4) feet opening. NOTE: Obstacle 1 and 2 must be set at the same distances from the fences.
 
E. Obstacle 2:  two (2) panels positioned twelve (12) feet and up to twenty (20) feet from rear fence and  twelve (12) feet and up to twenty (20) feet from the side fence at a 45 degree angle from the upper left corner of the arena inline with each other with a four (4) feet opening.  NOTE: Obstacle 1 and 2 must be set at the same distances from the fences.
 
F. Center chute - Located thirty-five (35) feet down the arena from the bottom corner of the panel of obstacle 2 and twelve (12) feet and up to twenty (20) feet from the side fence, with a  two (2) feet exit. See drawing in Appendix I.
 
G. Repen: Same as take pen or on same side of arena.
 
2. Sheep/Cattle
A. Arena: 150' X 250' minimum (plus or minus five (5) feet combined).
 
B. Panels: eight (8) feet - twelve (12) feet.
 
C. Pen: located at end of arena opposite obstacle 1 and 2, preferably
outside the arena.
 
D. Obstacle 1:  two (2) panels positioned thirty-five (35) feet  and up to fifty (50) feet from rear fence; and thirty-five (35) feet  and up to fitly (50) feet from the side fence at a 45 degree angle to the upper left corner of the arena inline with each other with a ten (10) feet opening or a fifteen (15) feet opening when using  6 - 10 head of livestock as long as the cross drive between the bottom corner of the panel of obstacle 1 to the bottom corner of the  panel of obstacle 2 is no less than forty-three (43) feet  across. NOTE: Obstacle 1 and 2 must be set at the same distances from the fences.
 
E. Obstacle 2:  two (2) panels positioned thirty-five (35) feet  and up to fifty (50) feet from rear fence; and thirty-five (35) feet  and up to fitly (50) feet from the side fence at a 45 degree angle to the upper left corner of the arena inline with each other with a ten (10) feet opening or a fifteen (15) feet opening when using  6 - 10 head of livestock as long as the cross drive between the bottom corner of the panel of obstacle 1 to the bottom corner of the  panel of obstacle 2 is no less than forty-three (43) feet across.  NOTE: Obstacle 1 and 2 must be set at the same distances from the fences.
 
F. Chute: Located one hundred (100) feet down the arena from the bottom corner of the panel of obstacle 2 and thirty-five (35 feet and up to fifty (50) feet from the side fence, with a  four (4) feet exit. See drawing in Appendix I.
 
G. Repen: same as take pen or on same side of arena.
 
Approve:  Bryant, Mahoney, Walker, Adamczyk, Holmes, Davies, Schvaneveldt, Kelly, Vest  Disapprove:  Simmons
 
Comments:  Reasons for variances are there were several clubs that wanted to put this course on in extra big arenas. 250 X 500 '  It was too big of a course in that size arena without being able to move it of the fence farther. It works best when moved off the fence.  I found myself at 2 different trials the need for more room off the fence when using flighty stock, the dog just didn't have enough space to get around the stock between the fence and panels with out chasing them in a circle. It seemed silly to limit this course if you have the arena space, be able to utilize it. The cross drive is based on the minimum arena size. So you can move it off the fence as long as the cross drive does not go under the minimum cross drive. It was very important to do this in a minimum size duck arena. Too hard to explain why but you can ask Maarten Walter, he was one of the judges that was judging.  There is a note in the rules saying that what ever the panels are set off the fence so must be the chute.  If this course was to ever be used with 10 head of cattle for like a finals, using a 10 ' hole would not work. I don't think a course should be made up that is unable to be accomplished nicely.  We are working at a farther distance and more stock, makes sense to make the opening to fit the largest stock and the maximum numbers used, like we have done on course B and the center pen size?  Cathe Walker was at the same trials that noticed the same things happening. She understands these changes for these reasons.  Boyce & Sherry

I would feel more comfortable if you said arenas up to 80' x 90' panels are to be 12' off the fence line.  Arenas larger than 80' x 90' panels could be set up to 18' off the fence line.  I think that there should be some sort of relationship with the arena size and the panel distance off the fence line to have some form of equality in the balance of distances for the different size arenas.  This goes for the larger stock as well.  Just ducks are easier to figure off the top of my head.  You never addressed my question that if obstacle #1 and #2 are set at say 15' does the chute need to be set at 15' as well or can it be set at a different distance if the host club desires? Sharon

I believe that is just what it says Sharon. The dimensions are all listed for the minimum size arenas, Ducks too. You cannot set the panels in the minimum size duck arena any more than 12' off the fence, because you would make the cross drive too short by doing so. To move any of the panels off the fence more than the min. distance it would have to be in a larger arena. Ducks for instance 80' x 90'. I wrote it that way so it would take care of itself. The statement about the cross drive minimum distance is all based on the minimum arena, panels and opening just like it was previous as it has been in the trial period. To move off the fences was to only accommodate larger arenas that have more room to make work. We have the same variances in all the other courses also, especially post adv. Like in Course B the distance between the center pen and the side drive line in a minimum size arena is a little tunnel. In a wide arena you hardly notice it. Boyce & Sherry

Why 2 years? We've already had this course for a year... I understand putting it back out there with the changes for people to try it out on another trial basis, but what would be the advantage to a 2 year trial period? Cathe

I disagree with any more trial period at all. The changes are only what the impute and the observations of improvement to be made. There has never been this much time taken on any other of our course programs. Didn't need it. If there is a changes that needs to be made it will show up and it can be taken care of in the same way Course A & B have been done in the last 20 plus years.  There is NO way to use this course enough to cover all the scenarios that will be encounter to have every wording to address it or not.
Boyce

Cathe, how many times do you think Course C has been used?  I asked the Business Office if they could tell us.  Because of the very limited exposure that this Course has had and being that it is something very different than Course A or Course B, I feel we need to give clubs a chance to get brave and try the course out and give us input.

I judged one of the first Course C trials, there was no problem with the course the days I judged it.  That was in Murrietta, CA.  The Bullet used Course C and so has Three Rivers.  There may have been a couple more trials but that is probably it.

To say that it has had much exposure is pushing it.   The advantage to having a two year trial period is that it gives clubs a chance to try it and if they feel like suggesting changes we can consider it.  The SDC is suppose to be developing this program for the memberships use and I would like to see it given a longer test period than one year so the membership can feel like we really do care that they try this program out and give us input. What is the rush?

KW told me that she thought when Course B was introduced that the trial period was two years, and there were changes made and another two year trial period.  Sharon

I have to agree with Sharon.  I don't believe that Course C has been used/offered enough times, in enough areas as of yet.  And I believe that two years is appropriate.  Sue

my questions was "why 2 years" ? Why is that number important? Do you think that "more" clubs will use this course if it is offered as a trial basis for 24 more months? more clubs than will use it if it is on a trial basis for another 12 months?

 

Personally, I believe that 12 or 24 months will not make a difference. If a club has the facilities to offer the course, they will.... if they dont, than they will offer either courses A or B instead. I'm just wondering what your reasoning is for stipulating that time frame. Cathe

I am with Cathe here. I think Sherry has made good modifications, but not so significant to require such an extended trial period. Some clubs are *never* going to utilize it, no matter what. Their choice, or maybe their lack of choice if they don't have the facilities.  But that should not stop us from making more options available to those who have the ability and desire to make use of them. JMHO.  Linda

I'd rather see a two year trial with Course C just because of the fact that there are not a lot of clubs using it, for what reasons not known.  Maybe they don't have enough space.  I know that it would be a space problem here in Idaho, at least where the club holds their trials at this point. I'd rather have a little longer trial time so we don't have to come back and "fix" so much stuff.  Maxine

Actually, if memory serves we had a trial period where Q's didn't count and then a trial period where Q's did. I thought it was for two years. KW

I have been CD around 10 times and most of the arenas in NE are too small once in CT they had a fun trial with course C but I did not attend. It was not brought again to have course C down there. Maybe we should offer two points for high in trial for course C for a two year. I think we have to entice people to try it.     Joe
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We have already been in the trial period 1 year. If we make it another 2 years, that will be a total of 3 yearsa little much.  Why can't we keep it in the trial period for 1 more year, and then next year if it needs work then make that decision. I think it will fly myself, just fine and will be more usable for everybody.  Boyce

While I have supported the concept of Course C throughout the development and trial stages, the proposed motion I do not agree with entirely and have stated my reasons why.  I feel that the rules need to be more complete with the variances that the obstacles can be set off a fence line.  Our other arena courses are set footages off the fence for the obstacles.  I see no reason why Course C cannot be written up similar.  And if you want to use variances than state the arena size and the minimum to maximum distance a club can set the panels at.  Don't leave this up to the clubs to figure out.  It is too complicated and will lead to problems IMO.  Our job as a committee and developing programs is to work out the schematics of the programs for the Affiliate Clubs to use easily.  I also would like to see the trial period changed to two years so more clubs have the option to use it. Sharon

 

Directors voting:  Approve:  Aufox, Gray, Davenport, DeChant, Berryessa and Warren.  Abstain:  Hellmeister.  Non-voting:  Hollen and Stevens.  Motion is approved.